Tener CAFS o no?

Feuerwehr517

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Hemos discutido algo sobre estos sistemas en el foro. Les dejo un articulo que ayuda a portar un poco sobre estos sistemas. Cabe destacar que el Cuerpo de Bomberos de Calama adquirió varias unidades (4 si no me equivoco) con estos sistemas por lo cual serían los primeros carros en Chile que cuentan con estos sistemas incorporados a las bombas (no portátiles).

Link del articulo original: http://www.fireapparatusmagazine.co...nt-of-contents-fires-using-water-vs-cafs.html

To CAFS or Not: A Comparative Study on Extinguishment of Contents Fires Using Water vs. CAFS
07/09/2015
BY STEVE GREEN

On December 12, 2014, the Southlake (TX) Fire Department, in cooperation with the Johnson County (TX) ESD1 Training Center, conducted a series of live fire experiments.
The following is a synopsis of what transpired during those live burns. This article is not meant to be a position paper on the use of compressed air foam systems (CAFS), nor does it prescribe one method of extinguishment over another. As always, follow your departmental guidelines regarding suppression techniques.

The What
CAFS is not a new piece of technology that just appeared on the fireground. In our area, we have had some departments actively deploying CAFS on the fireground for more than nine years. What is very much "up in the air" is its effective usage in urban environments here in the Metroplex area. The area known as the Metroplex encompasses Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas. Many departments have purchased these rigs and deployed them throughout their fleets. The manufacturers have been very good with initial training on operating the actual systems. There are also plenty of "experts" in the field of CAFS who are willing to come train your department. What is not standard nationwide is the acceptance of CAFS as an initial attack method. It is misunderstood and often not set up correctly-many apparatus operators are not familiar with the maintenance and upkeep of their systems. This altogether represents the higher costs often associated with the actual system. I have heard too many individuals comment that these systems are "a waste of money," that they are "glad it's out of service today," or comment that "we just need to stick with water." As with many "new" pieces of technology, training and experimentation are ways to overcome many of these misconceptions.
1507FA-Green1.jpg

We could not acquire enough structures representative of construction found in the Metroplex. To be as realistic as possible, we acquired contemporary furnishings common to all jurisdictions. Mattresses, chairs, couches, and wood-component nightstands and dressers are very common products found in all bedrooms throughout the country. (Photos by author.)

The Idea
After the Southlake Fire Department acquired its newest engine, some members and I were flowing this apparatus in a parking lot during the spring of 2014. Not having used CAFS that much before, we found the results rather interesting. We had also borrowed a nozzle from another department to do some minimal testing. Afterward, we actually had more questions than answers. Basic operation of the system is easy, but the application results were different than when we used water. As a member of the Fire Instructors Association of North Texas (FIANT), I started contacting some of my other instructors about information, tactics, and so on as they related to CAFS. Now fast forward about three months to the summer of 2014. I put a study group together to evaluate the differences between CAFS and water. After about five to six months of planning, scheduling, and rescheduling, we managed, as a group, to get this done.
What We Were Burning
To be as realistic as possible, we could not acquire that many structures representative of construction found in the Metroplex. What we could do was acquire contemporary furnishings that are common to all jurisdictions. Mattresses, chairs, couches, and wood-component nightstands and dressers are very common products found in all bedrooms throughout the country. So, the experiment would need to be done on furnishings and contents rather than acquired structures.

Let's look at some accepted proven data regarding these furnishings. This will help us later when determining British thermal units (Btus), energy release, and so on.

Engineered wood-otherwise known as particleboard or oriented strand board (OSB)-is very common in lightweight bedroom furnishings. The use of these types of products has increased because of the inexpensive nature of the components-wood shavings, sawdust, and glues being the majority of the component structure. It is important to note that it is not wood! This is a manufactured product and is toxic as such. Although much progress has been made in recent years, these products will contain formaldehyde and off-gas this and CO as they burn. According to various sources, particleboard does have to meet new standards for formaldehyde concentration, but only as it pertains to building construction-not furniture or furnishings.
1507FA_Green_f1.jpg

Figure 1: Live Burn Test Results
According to data, in 2004, 20.6 percent of all polyurethane foam produced was in furniture and bedding. This number has been increasing steadily over the past 10 years. It is important to note that in 2008, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission requested a change in the standard for flame resistance in residential furniture. Since the majority of the standard is based on cigarettes being the primary ignition source, it is seeking to change the standard to something that will reflect other ignition sources.

There is also another change coming regarding foams and flame retardant. The Design for the Environment group, affiliated with the Environmental Protection Association (EPA), is proposing new standards for flammability in residential furniture. California has adopted a new standard, and all manufacturers were required to be compliant in that state as of January 2015. It remains to be seen whether or not the federal guidelines will mimic California's lead on this front.

Even with these changes, hydrocarbon products continue to have a major role in fire development and in furnishing construction in our dwellings. As a result, we also are seeing a higher energy release because of the manmade products. Important to remember is that one pound of wood will release approximately 8,000 Btus, while one pound of plastic will release approximately 19,900 Btus when ignited. Quick extinguishment will give victims a better chance of survival because of these toxic gases and higher temperatures.

The Prop
To more accurately represent what is happening in our residence fires, we settled on an average size room found in the southern United States. According to census data from 2009, 53 percent of the homes surveyed had three bedrooms. The average home size in the southern United States until the 2009 census had been growing. According to those figures, the home size actually had decreased to an average of 2,521 square feet-about a 100-square-foot decrease over previous data. Bedroom sizes continue to average between six feet by eight feet and 10 feet by six feet. Our prop used an average of 10 feet by 12 feet. This was also to accommodate room for suppression efforts and projected fire growth.

The Nozzles
This was an area in which we all have different opinions. Based on articles, phone calls, and our general usage, we decided to use both a smooth bore and a fog nozzle. These are the two most common and accepted nozzle types for our area.

As a side discussion, there are numerous types of fog nozzles today. What is becoming more commonplace in our area is the low-pressure fog nozzle. I have talked to some departments using these nozzles as an attempt to regulate nozzle reaction and increase maneuverability.

For our purposes, we used a Task Force Tips Flip Tip nozzle with a 11⁄8-inch smooth orifice. This allowed us to move rapidly between burns without having to switch nozzles. We did use a Vindicator nozzle for demonstration purposes for water only.

I realize this is a very narrow window of nozzle selection. Our original experiment was going to involve more variety in nozzle usage. But after consideration, we decided on our first attempt we needed to simplify things. We hope to follow this during 2015 with a study on nozzle selection. Results will vary depending on your local department's nozzle selection.

The Process
In any comparative process, there are fixed points of data. The fixed references we used were as follows:

  • 200 feet of 1¾-inch attack line.
  • Three-person crew.
  • Application of product directly to the fire.
Preconnected attack lines are very common in the Metroplex. They vary from 100 to 250 feet and most are 1¾-inch lines. We settled on a 200-foot line because the setbacks in all jurisdictions are different and we wanted a broader spectrum. A three-person crew standing in the doorway performed all extinguishment from approximately five feet away with a direct attack on the burning product, which is important to note. Since we are looking for extinguishment time and temperature variations, direct application of the water or compressed air foam onto the burning material gave us a consistent attack method and the quickest extinguishment.

In each burn, the material was ignited, and fire was allowed to grow to approximately 50 percent involvement. We were looking for initial ceiling temperatures to be between 800°F and 1,000°F and mid height temperature to be around 400°F to 500°F. It is also important to note that when referencing mid height, we are talking about the zone of three to four feet off the floor. This is where firefighter and victim survivability is most likely.
1507FA-Green2.jpg

The Plano (TX) Fire Department advocates using a reinforced three-foot section of hose at the nozzle to keep any kinks from developing at the operator area.

Our Conclusions
From the data collected, some interesting patterns emerged. As you can see from Figure 1, CAFS allowed a 25 percent decrease in extinguishment time. Also note that the temperature differences between water and CAFS are comparatively close: only about a 10 percent difference at ceiling and two to three percent at the mid height level.

For data collection (and argument) purposes, there was a differential of plus or minus four seconds for variations in water burns and a differential of plus or minus 1.3 seconds for CAFS. CAFS extinguishment time averaged 8.1 seconds to 12.0 seconds for water extinguishment. As you can see, after 90 seconds, the temperatures basically are the same using either product.

This data would suggest no appreciable difference to victims or firefighters operating close to the floor. We have always assumed that water had a faster cooling effect-but this does show that with direct application it can be slower than using CAFS. And, ceiling temperatures look cooler with direct application onto the burning product. This can provide potential victims with a zone of survivability. Furthermore, this can also delay potential flashover effects, basically resetting or completely extinguishing the fire.

Again, to make sure we are all looking at the same thing, we are only talking about room-and-contents fires, not structure fires. The data suggests that CAFS is beneficial if you are looking for quick knockdown and little water damage to the structural components and surroundings.

The process we used was not to skew the data to an expected result. Our conclusions are based on direct observation, taking into account the variables mentioned above. Your results could vary depending on weather, crew makeup, and foam system or nozzle selection. We are not scientists, just a group of firefighters who pooled our resources together to try and get some useful information for our respective departments. There will be those who absolutely disagree with our results. I encourage you then to conduct your own experiments-that's the point of all this. You can do this in your own backyard!

Here are some points to remember:

  1. A 200-foot section of 1¾-inch line charged with water contains approximately 24.98 gallons of water. So when the initial charged line is in place, unless you have bled that water off, the first approximately 30 seconds are really just Class A foam (or wet foam), not CAFS.
  2. To maintain the proper foam/water/air ratio, Alvarado (TX) Fire Department personnel have advocated leaving the bail cracked slightly to allow the system to bleed out. When the knob is fully opened, the mixture is constant because air has been circulating through the system. A more dry foam product is readily seen. It is a very effective technique.
  3. The Plano (TX) Fire Department advocates using a reinforced three-foot section of hose at the nozzle to keep any kinks from developing at the operator area.
  4. The water meter for the day indicated this total experiment used 2,894 gallons of water. That is nine total burns plus flushing lines and some actual practice post testing. CAFS does not use up your second most precious asset on the fireground: water.
So, if you do have one of these systems or are contemplating getting one, there is no substitute for experience. Get out there and flow, flow, flow! The more effective you are in practice, the more effective you are on the fireground.
 

Elkete

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El CAFS es re bueno.... cuando se da la cadena de eventos para que todo funcione bien.

En USA app la mitad de los sistemas CAFS instalados en los carros no se usan por diversos motivos, principalmente problemas de mantención, y eso que allá están los instructores, se entregan los equipos con bombos y platillos luego de la capacitación respectiva, pero al poco tiempo muchos quedan desencantados.

Es un sistema con unos 30 años en el mercado pero todavía no pasa de ser una "promesa". Muchos lo ven como la panacea para grandes incendios o para ocupar bajos volúmenes de agua, pero no ha resultado ser así, lamentablemente.

AFDLAD (RNico) comentaba en este foro que en Austin pasa algo similar. En teoría el sistema es muy práctico, en la práctica es pura teoría :)
 
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nfd

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A mi me preocupa saber de sus mantenciones y que periosidad requieren
 

Oregon wff

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Yo tengo equipos de espuma montados en todas mis maquinas (forestales, con espuma clase A) sin contar eductores en lina. ninguno es CAFS.
y te puedo dar un sumario de como funcionan.

Eductores en linea: deben ser "pareados " con un piton de GPM predeterminado, y presion predeterminao, y el largo del tendido debe ser minimo.
un cacho......

Robwen flo max: funciona con presion diferencial lo puedes ocupar con cualquier presion y GPM, y cualquier largo de tendido de manguera, buena espuma, el sistema es medio complicado de cargar, y uno de los diales tiene tendencia a quedarse pegado. nesecita algo de mantencion periodica. y tienes una sola linea de descarga.
cuesta como U$ 5000-7000

Cascade Foam flo: sistema "alrrededor de la bomba" optiene lecturas de presion desde suscion y descarga, y injecta espuma antes de la bomba.
igual que el anterior no importa la presion o y gmp limitados entre 5 a 100 gpm. puedes tener espuma en todas las salidas de la bomba. pero si tienes el retorno abierto, te va a mandar espuma al estanque. costo U$ 500

Y el ganador........

Afectuosamnte conocido como la caja roja (the red box). originalmete fabricado por chemonix ahora waterous tiene una version.
watftsm.jpg

es como la nada y la cosa ninguna, pero funciona todo el tiempo, sin partes moviles, 0 mantencion......cualquier presion , gpm hasta 150, tendidos de manguera largos.
cuesta como u$ 800, el unico problema es que tiene como 10 a 20 % de perdida de presion por roce. y tiene que tener una salida dedicada.
 

Gabriel M.

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El fin de semana estuvo con nosotros Pitón Ruso y Rodrigo Nicolau en una capacitación de tendidos y armadas.
Rodrigo nos comentaba tbn que el sistema CAFS es nada más que un soberano cacho.... Que finalmente si o si, van a usar agua igual. Por tanto, siempre prefieren agua antes que CAFS.
 

firefree

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Son mejores los cafs para carros bombas, si lo usas como watermist. Un sistema CAFS instalado el la bomba te permite lanzar agua, agua/espuma y agua presurizada con aire y micronizada (watermist son los mejores).
Apagas el fuego usando menos agua. Con 10 litros bajo el concepto watermist con espuma (CAFS2) apagas un auto en llamas y con 15-20 litros bajo el sistema watermist tambien.
Yo he probado ambos sistemas y es el futuro si no te gusta apagar el fuego por inundación. En mi particular me quedo con watermist.

Puedes ver los videos en waterous de la bomba con cafs. La mantencion es similar a las bombas bajo NFPA.
Los chinos y carros bombas industriales en USA, MEXICO, Colombia y otros estan usando CAFS en sus carros bombas. Watermist en alemania, austria, polonia, italia y otros.
 

nfd

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en chile el cafs llegaria en maquinas de calama y nunoa hasta el momento. al parecer en brigadas de emergencia ya hay con cafs
 

Gabriel M.

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Consulta.... Es caro el.sistema???? Es difícil y cara la mantención???? Si fuera costoso el sistema..... En que situaciones es preferible utilizarlo en vez de agua???
Porque si un auto se quema, este con CAFS o sin CAFS terminará igual de destruido o nada que ver lo que planteo????
 

nfd

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Que pasa con el cafs y los incendios en altura, comp se comporta subiendo por la red seca la mescla aire agua?
 

Oregon wff

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Si es caro, u$ 30,000+. en los equipos modulares tienes un motor (de por lo menos 23 hp) mas un compresor, muchas unidades montan motores diesel por que tienene requerimintos de ocupar el mismo combustible que el carro. cuando se especifica durante la construccion del carro por lo general la adicion de CAFS aumenta el valor de este en 10%.
Yo ocupo espuma en aplicaciones forestales y ocupo espuma todo el tiempo, basicamente permite aumentar la cobertura de tu estanque entre 2 a 4 veces, osea un estanque de 1000 lts con espuma al 1%, apaga lo mismo que un estanque de 4000 lts de agua sola.
He hecho alguna experimentacion con muy bajos caudales de agua y pitones de espuma de mediana expacion logrando muy buenos resualtados, logrando espuma relativamnte seca, ocupando los sistemas que mostre antes.
 

Elkete

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El CAFs no es magia, si el incendio necesita 500 gpm de agua para absorber el calor debe ser espuma con 500 gpm de agua, los CAFS mas grandes son para 400 gpm de agua.

Para espuma Clase A, se puede verter el espumógeno en el estanque del carro para bombear espuma en alto caudal, sin necesidad de premezclador ni de presiones elevadas.
 

Oregon wff

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Ese mismo, hay muchas agencias forestales que han cambiado equipos mas "sofisticados " por este, que la verdad es bastante a prueba de we.....

El problema que existe cuando le hechas el concentrtado de espuma directo al estanque, si bien funciona, es lo corrosivo que algunos son, por ejemplo el silv-ex es conocido por hacer estragos en estanques metalicos, y en estanques de fibra, algunos se impregnan y basitacamte quedan haciendo espuma por un largo tiempo.......
 

Gabriel M.

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Otra consulta... es que pa entender bien el tema. Si es caro lo de la espuma y mantenimiento.... Cuando puedo yo justificar su uso? Entiendo que con espuma se desaloja menos agua con el fin de evitar los "INUNDATOR " (jajajajjjjjaaja) pero no es más barato entrenar a estos "INUNDATOR " en abrir y cerrar la llave antes que gastar y gastar en el sistema CAFS?????

No es crítica Ahhhh, es consulta pa entender bien el tema.....
Gracias y Saludos!!!!!
 

AFDLAD15

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entre agua sola y CaFS, mejor "agua y espuma"

como todo, cafs tiene cosas buena y malas. El problema es la falta de conocimientos de hidraulica por lo tanto "venden" el concepto CaFS como la receta pa apagar incendios

Austin FD no tenemos CAFS, pero he preguntado en Deptos cercanos y solo uno tenian buenos comentarios del sistema. Otros 4-5 comentaron diversos problemas y al final no usaban el Cafs

saludos


...!!!!
 

Elkete

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Otra consulta... es que pa entender bien el tema. Si es caro lo de la espuma y mantenimiento.... Cuando puedo yo justificar su uso? Entiendo que con espuma se desaloja menos agua con el fin de evitar los "INUNDATOR " (jajajajjjjjaaja) pero no es más barato entrenar a estos "INUNDATOR " en abrir y cerrar la llave antes que gastar y gastar en el sistema CAFS?????

No es crítica Ahhhh, es consulta pa entender bien el tema.....
Gracias y Saludos!!!!!

El CAFS es muy re bueno en cualquier lado, pero al parecer no lo es en la vida real. Siempre aparece algún problemilla que manda todo a las pailas... el compresor de aire con demasiado aire, la espuma demasiado rica o demasiado pobre, la presión del aire muy baja o muy alta, dosificación del concentrado demasiado variable y mil otros, a pesar de tener unos 30 años en el mercado todavía no es una tecnología madura.

El mismo o menor tiempo tratando de aprender como funciona a un inmenso costo, mejor gastarlo en mejorar las operaciones con agua.

El CAFS es muy promisorio, entrega excelentes resultados, requiere mínimo personal... pero por US$30.000 hay mejores y mas fáciles formas de obtener más rendimiento en los incendios.
 
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gonzaju2

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Otra consulta... es que pa entender bien el tema. Si es caro lo de la espuma y mantenimiento.... Cuando puedo yo justificar su uso? Entiendo que con espuma se desaloja menos agua con el fin de evitar los "INUNDATOR " (jajajajjjjjaaja) pero no es más barato entrenar a estos "INUNDATOR " en abrir y cerrar la llave antes que gastar y gastar en el sistema CAFS?????

No es crítica Ahhhh, es consulta pa entender bien el tema.....
Gracias y Saludos!!!!!


Es cierto lo que dices, es mas barato !!!
Lo tendremos disponible en B1-CBS
chutas que hay harto que leer sobre CAFS !, recien empiezo, pero tendre preferencia por lo que dicen los bomberos del articulo arriba (Feuerwehr517)
 

nfd

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habra que ir a conocer la B1 cbs para conocer el cafs
 

Feuerwehr517

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Acá algunos videos que ayudan a la discusión:

En este video se ve el uso de Alta Presión (HP), CAFS y una linea normal de ataque:
Se puede concluir claramente que en términos de tiempo de acción el CAFS es lo mas eficiente en la extinción de ese foco de fuego.

En este video, una explicación de Waterous sobre la acción del CAFS con el calor: